Rupture and repair

MELODY: This happens every day in my house. My son does something, I get annoyed and inevitably, most of the time I snap, I yell, I say something that makes him feel bad and then of course I get consumed with guilt. What if there's a solution to end this cycle? Well, there is and paediatrician and fellow mum, Dr Tash is here to tell us all about it. Although not quite in the way you expect. Welcome to Mum to Mum with Doctor Tash. Hello Dr Tash.

DOCTOR TASH: Good morning Melody, it's nice to see you again.

MELODY: Good morning and it's amazing because I'm really excited about today's topic about this concept of rupture and repair. I've read the article that you wrote, it goes into detail about what it is and it can be found in our website at MumsAtTheTable.com or in our show notes. But for those who may not have read the article yet, rupture and repair. So you're talking about those moments of disconnect, the scolding, the snapping, the losing it, when it feels like there's a breakdown in the relationship we have with our kids and how we can recover from it. Did I sum that up correctly?

DOCTOR TASH: Yeah, that's right.

MELODY: Awesome. So the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I'm not talking so much about rupture and repair. Well yes I am but I want to talk about something else first. In the holy grail of parenting, we are supposed to develop this thing that experts call secure attachment with their children. This deep, trusting, consistent, emotional bond right? And then there's rupture. So you're telling us that these moments of rupture can help with secure attachment. That sounds contradictory. So walk us through it please.

DOCTOR TASH: Sure thing. So I think the place to start is understanding that secure attachment is not about never getting it wrong. It's about whether the child can trust that the connection will
return following that moment of disconnection. Understanding this is actually what's really liberating for so many parents because let's be honest, the pressure of getting it right all the time is just either one, impossible but also totally overwhelming.

MELODY: Well and you never feel it. You never feel like you've gotten it right, so all the time you're getting it wrong.

DOCTOR TASH: Yep. 100%. 100%. We're human. And so let's take the incident. There's yelling, there's screaming, disconnection's happened but what next? So when that rupture happens the child is left feeling disconnected from the most important person in their world. That can be both disorientating and unsettling but this is not a one-off event. It's experience in the context of that relationship's history. And so a bit like a computer storing data, the child's nervous system tracks what typically happens next. Is it safe? Does connection return? And so when you're building a secure attachment it's about the consistency of the message in ensuring repair or reconnection occurs. When we regularly practise that lifestyle of intentional reconnection, that message we're giving to our children is: This relationship is safe. It matters more to me than if a hiccup comes our way. If I need a moment I'll always come back. You can trust me. This is a safe place. And so that genuine repair actually strengthens the bond by coming back every time. Now please, if this is new and a change and you haven't practised it before please, there's no shame. It's never too late to start.

MELODY: It's actually really, it makes sense now because you know there is the, when you're young, you yell that you yell at them, there's that disconnection right? But then I'm thinking back, I'm thinking to when they become teenagers inevitably they'll make a mistake and that disconnection is probably not with you but because they've broken up, you've built up this bond in which you know they know that you're a safe place, if they've made a mistake they can come to you. So even if they've made a mistake outside, that secure attachment, excuse me, will probably help them to come to you in times of trouble, I'm guessing.

DOCTOR TASH: Yeah, absolutely.

MELODY: So now we're talking about how it's that building the repair is the thing that helps. How do you how do you make that repair?

DOCTOR TASH: Sure. There's no single line to say that is the perfect repair and I think it's really important to acknowledge that you need to be one, authentic to the situation and two, genuine and authentic to you as a person, your child as an individual and the relationship you have between you so there's no one-line-fits-all if that makes sense. But there are some key important things to keep in mind that can help shape that repair and also some common traps that can get in the way. Firstly it's important to realise that this is about taking ownership of our response and the part that we played within the rupture so it's accountability for our actions and our response but it's also tuning into how it felt for them not just what happened but emotionally how it felt what was the feelings that they had in that moment and letting them know that their feelings make sense. It might be something like, "I got really angry and I yelled at you. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled. I'll try to do better at calming myself down first next time. That must have been a bit scary for you." Maybe an inquiry, "Did it make you feel sad when Mummy yelled? I want to understand how it felt for you." Obviously I'm tailoring that to a toddler child but if you're talking to a teenager it's the same principles that still apply.

Now one other thing is it can be really easy to accidentally shift the blame in our apologies even when we mean really well and so that's why it's so important to hold on to that reminder that this is about the ownership of our response and the part we played it's not the time to make an excuse or justify our actions or our responses. Sometimes it can be really obvious when we're doing this but can also be unintentional and relatively subtle as well. So some common traps you might fall into are things like, "I'm sorry for yelling but you made me really angry when you hit your brother." Now I know their action was the trigger for you but your child didn't make you yell and so we are still responsible for the actions and responses that we have to that situation. This sort of response doesn't take ownership it shifts the blame to the child for the disconnection because it sends a message that I'm responsible for my mum's emotional stability and it's my fault if she gets angry or yells because I'm the one that causes it. Another potential.

MELODY: Nah, I'm just thinking that's true because it's something that I do often it's like, oh no, "I'm so angry because you did this."

DOCTOR TASH: It, so many of us do, so many of us have been brought up in that way, it's what comes natural and it's taking that step back and realising how, what the unintentional message that is being delivered is doing and we've all been on the receiving end of it too and then in that trying to start taking it as "I'm doing this to take accountability. I'm doing this to take accountability for me," rather than talking to the situation which comes at a different moment.

A more subtle or another common example would be, "I'm sorry for yelling but next time if you listen to me I won't need to yell," but a subtle one is, "I'm sorry for yelling at you I just really needed you to pack your toys away the first time I asked." That sounds reasonable but it still places the emotional weight on the child and that's not theirs to carry. It's subtly saying if you'd done what I asked I wouldn't have lost control and so true repair keeps the focus on our actions not their behaviour and then the goal is to show our children in this moment we are safe and even when we make a mistake we're committed to the connection no matter what. Does that make sense?

MELODY: So I'm trying to think about that situation which you know, I know I have used it's like you know, "I'm sorry for yelling but if you had done it the first time, if you've gone to brush your teeth the first time you would have done it," so I'm just trying to think about the shift right, so it's
kind of like, "I'm sorry I yelled, I just got really, really upset," uh...I'm trying to think how do you shift it? "I should not..." help me out here.

DOCTOR TASH: Yeah, so it would be like, you know, it might be something like, "I'm sorry I yelled, I was feeling really frustrated in that moment but I shouldn't have yelled. Can we talk about how maybe, you know we need to brush our teeth we need to do the things, let's talk through..." so that bit's the repair the next bit's a lesson and that's almost a conversation for a different time but the next bit's a lesson of you know, "Can we talk through how can we do this differently next time, what can I, what things can you put in place or can I put in place to help you to do these things," but it's a very much potentially a topic for another day.

MELODY: Because the emotions are high.

DOCTOR TASH: Yeah, what I'm trying to separate is the repair and the lesson are two separate things. The repair is the responsibility of us as the adult. The lesson doesn't come in the same sentence. Doesn't come necessarily in the exact same moment. It might come in the same discussion but not, it's not, they're not connected if that makes sense. It's let's repair, reconnect and then let's talk about the lesson later.

MELODY: That makes sense, so it's basically, yeah, so it's like, "I'm sorry I yelled," and that's a full stop, there's no you know, because you did something.

DOCTOR TASH: No if, but or maybe. It's "I'm sorry for what I did that I shouldn't have done," full stop.

MELODY: Yeah that makes sense so you don't need to justify anything you're just basically saying that, "I'm sorry I yelled, let's focus on the fact, of how you're feeling because I yelled."

DOCTOR TASH: Yep and now once we're connected emotionally then when we're stable, we're in a good place, let's go to the next step subsequently about how do we work through the lesson in this how do we work through improving this for the future not doing it again. Does that make sense?

MELODY: Yes, makes perfect sense now and yes because we always have this tendency, "I'm sorry I yelled, it was because etc etc etc," but you can, you just put a full stop there...

DOCTOR TASH: That's the whole thing. It's the full stop. It's not a comma, not a semicolon, not a hash, it's a full stop. It doesn't mean the next bit doesn't follow. It's just they're separated and if the person is still screaming, dysregulated and upset that's not the moment for the next bit. Connection comes first, then the next bit. So full stop then when it's the right time which might be that conversation or maybe later, then you carry on to the next bit.

MELODY: Yeah so you know when you're hugging, when everyone's calm and then you just go, "You know, I got really angry just now, how do you think we might be able to avoid that in..."

DOCTOR TASH: In your illustration, it's like you know, "I shouldn't have yelled, I was frustrated because of that but you know, how can I help you work through teeth brushing better, what can we put in place?" and so now it's troubleshooting. You're not giving an, dictating an answer or do this or do that. You're actually troubleshooting of going, you know, what might help you and if the child's old enough they might have some ideas or strategies that they could put in place as well. You know, would it be helpful to have a chart on the wall? Would it be helpful to have a timer or something else? Anyway it's a big topic, we could definitely and we should talk about but probably better to leave it for an entire time to give it its full justice but if that gives a bit of an indication it's like you know, there is so much you can keep doing. It's not a just connect with the emotions and forget the rest. It's recognising that the repair and the emotional reconnection is separate and a full stop and not dependent on whatever the event was.

MELODY: Yes. The thing I do want to ask and I know you've addressed it in your article but I feel like we need to talk a little bit about it here is this idea of repair right because it sounds like repair is about "I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry this happened". Many parents worry that apologising actually does weaken their authority and I know you've addressed it in the article which you can find in the show notes but just in case people aren't reading the article, talk about it a little bit.

DOCTOR TASH: Sure. So I suppose as a parent we need to remember that we're actually a leader to our children. How we speak and act towards them actually directly teaches them how to speak, act towards others and so by apologising to our children when an apology is due, what we're teaching them is how to model accountability, how to model humility. We teach them to take ownership over their own mistakes and also how to take the steps to repair ruptures in their own relationships as well. That can be with their peers, their siblings and even with us and into the future with their spouse and their children also and so children who have been apologised to actually find it much easier to apologise to others when they make the mistake and I do this a lot with my kids.

So I do a lot of rupturing but I do a lot of repairing so they hear "I'm sorry" a lot and I've noticed across time that I can, you know, something will happen, my son is already saying "I'm sorry" faster than I think I probably ever did as a child. Even my two-year-old recently I think he whacked his brother in the face and I went to get annoyed and he looks at me and said, "Sorry Mummy," and so it's when we model apologies we're not actually showing weakness. A bit like what we talked about before. If you just focus on the "I'm sorry" and then you leave it at that, let's disregard all your behaviours and everything, that's not the best but when we're doing it in that healthy combination of repairing, I'm sorry, I'm taking ownership, we'll carry on to the lesson and the learning subsequently, it's actually a really healthy modelling of how kids should interact
with others when they make a mistake too.

MELODY: I'm gonna change tack a little bit because you know, we're talking about how it's actually good for us to do the repairing and the reality is and I took heart in what you said before about you know, you do a lot of rupturing, like I feel so good. If the expert can do it.

DOCTOR TASH: I do.

MELODY: We do the repairing what if they are the ones that actually cause the rupturing a lot of times you know we are taking responsibility for our actions so we've done the rupture we're taking responsibility and say we will repair but what if they are the ones that caused the rupture? Like say for example, you know, you're asking something, you're just having a normal conversation and suddenly they just snap at you and they've lost it or whatever it is, do we do the repairing? Do we wait for them to do the repairing?

DOCTOR TASH: I think when they're young, we're still realising and young, let's be honest, your brain is not fully developed from an emotional perspective till you're about 25, 26 so if you've got a child, they're still young, most of the time. So I think even when, we've got to realise that we're helping them as well. A part of our guide is to be the guide to help direct them through this journey and so even when it seems like the ruptures come from their behaviour, they're screaming at us, they're yelling at us, they're hitting us, they're throwing something, the question is still, how can I meet them in this moment? And so because they're the immature one that's still learning how to develop, manage through this emotional world, it comes back to us as the adult more so when they're little and still to an extent as they're growing up but this pulls back a lot as you're ageing, obviously but to try and lead that reconnection and if, you might have older kids that are still emotionally very young and in that case it's still the adult's responsibility to try and lead that reconnection because they don't have the skill set to do it, if that makes sense and so we're trying to give them the skill set by learning and modelling how you do it and so that response from us, models to them what does a repair look like and so they might be the one that lashed out but if we can come back calm and come back and show them how to bring that connection back, what we're showing them is how do I do this myself in the future and so in that setting you might come back and say, "You know things got a little bit rough between us earlier.
Do you reckon we, can we talk about what happened?" Like trying to make it as a sort of calmer moment and it's like and it might be like, "I want to know, I want you to know that I'm here and I care about how you were feeling also," so you're trying not to to jump into blame or excuses it's just acknowledging and stating fact. It's like you know things got a little bit rough or "I noticed you had some really big feelings, like is there anything you want to talk about, is there something that's going on for you?" and so you know, I think we've talked about behaviour being communication. They're trying to, if they're snapping out of the blue they're trying to communicate something to you and so it's connecting to them going, okay I'm going to be an emotional anchor, maybe need to go calm myself but I'm trying to be calm and to be there for you to help you navigate through what is currently clearly a storm for you. Does that make sense?

MELODY: Yeah.

DOCTOR TASH: So it's not about who was right or wrong it's about how do I restore the trust and that emotional safety and as I said, it is not ignoring or disregarding inappropriate behaviours. It's so important that we teach them how to be accountable for their actions too but a lot of that comes from modelling how do you be accountable for your actions and with that repetition and time as well.

MELODY: Yeah I think it's a lot of you know, not escalating your emotions but then yeah, like you said, not escalating your emotions but still just because you're not escalating your emotions it doesn't mean that you're letting them get away with it.

DOCTOR TASH: Absolutely.

MELODY: It's about coming back to it when you're a bit more calm and not addressing the thing when you are actually with a heightened emotion.

DOCTOR TASH: At that moment you're feeling highly triggered it's a good moment to go, okay pause, pause, pause, come back.

MELODY: That's well, this leads into the next question that I have right because whether it's them reacting and them causing the rupture or you reacting because they've done something, usually the rupture is because you know you're really annoyed right, you've got this really, you're angry, you're frustrated, you're annoyed. Let's be honest here, I am really not interested in doing any repairing or able to just be calm and repair sincerely. I just want to go, "You are such a little annoying person that I just want to..." So what do I do in that moment and I know you said later right? You wait for it later but how much later before it's too late?

DOCTOR TASH: Yep. First of all, I can so relate. Sometimes I need space myself and that's okay and repair can still be meaningful hours, days, even weeks later potentially, if it's been a big thing. A simple, "I've been thinking about what happened yesterday and I wish I'd handled it differently" can actually go a long way and that's not taking ownership of or blame it's just saying like you know, I wish I handled it differently and so it's talking about what we did again. So the impact of a rupture can still linger for some time and in that setting, so can the power of a repair and so I think it's important to realise that just because that intensity has come down a bit, we shouldn't just brush it off as, well it's over now there's no point bringing it up, because closure is actually quite important and let's just pause for a second to add this. We talk about this in the context of a parent-child relationship but this is just as relevant to marriage and every other relationship, important relationship in our lives. So pause with me for a moment and I want you to think about your own childhood and if there was ever a time that you felt really wronged by a parent, a sibling or someone else and they just never acknowledged it. They move forward like nothing had ever happened and trying to remember how that felt. Like did it feel resolved? I mean like for me I, obviously bringing it up, of course it doesn't. It gives that feeling of like, "You just, it's like an this really like annoyed me and it upset me and it's like it didn't matter to you," whereas you contrast that with a time when someone's apologised, even years later and that kind of acknowledgement still really can matter and make a big difference, so it's never that, it's never too late to say I'm sorry. In fact I remember saying sorry to someone once for something I did as a child and I'd really done the wrong thing by this person. As an adult and they were like, "I'm so grateful that you said that." This is like probably 15 years later or something and they were still appreciative of the apology and so I think it's never too late to say "I'm sorry."

Personal example from last week. I was cooking dinner and my boys were playing together on the kitchen floor. Next minute, seemingly unprovoked, my eldest whacked his brother in the face with a silicon spatula and barely missed his eye. I'm gonna be honest. I saw red, I lost it, I yelled, I shamed, I said all the things you wish you didn't say. I'm pretty sure I even yelled something along the lines of like, "What on earth is wrong with you? How dare you? Why are you so nasty?" plus a whole lot more. I knew I needed to calm down but I was also solo parenting. My hands were deep in the sink and right in the middle of like meal prep and I snapped at him to get out, then I took a deep breath, pulled myself together as best I could and followed on with "I love you but right now I'm really angry and I need some time by myself to calm down. Please go to your room or the lounge room for a bit. I do not want to say or do anything that I don't mean because I'm angry."

Now I need to pause here for a second because it's really important to be clear on this. That second part was not the rupture, that was me recognising and articulating my need. I was so far beyond being ready to repair at that moment and I was trying to take an adult time-out. That was me trying to prevent further rupture from occurring and it was actually a good thing. Mind you, my tone was irritated. I did my best to hold my delivery as much as I could. The rupture was not that moment, it was the way I exploded, yelled and shamed beforehand. Thank goodness he followed my cue, left there was no further rupturing but did I repair that night? No. I didn't. In the busyness of solo parenting I just let it slide. It was easier, it was more convenient and in fact, it was in preparing for this interview, it reminded me I hadn't gone back to it and so it was a week later when I finally brought it up and repaired. I don't need to talk through all the details of it in that moment but it was just acknowledging that it had happened and acknowledging that I'm sorry for my part and talking through how you behave with your brother next time as a subsequent thing. But here's the thing. So delayed repair still opens that door to reconnection and it still sends the message that you matter, our relationship matters and I'm willing to take responsibility for my part and I care enough to come back to you.

MELODY: That feels good because yeah I know there's so many moments in time right where there is an obvious, I mean my son knows that there's a rupture already and he comes, he actually comes to me and he's like, "Do you still love me?" and I'm like, "I still love you, I need a moment and I'm still so angry," and I just...

DOCTOR TASH: Yeah.

MELODY: I feel like strangling him and it's just like "Just leave me alone, I still love you but can you just leave me alone?" and I feel like this, just it's still broken somehow or I feel like I need to mend it straight away but you're saying it's okay as long as you come back to it.

DOCTOR TASH: You can come back to the repair. In that moment, you need to, you can't parent out of an empty cup as you know some of those cliché quotes we always hear but it's true. If you're at that moment, you're empty, you need to refill your emotional stability before you can be someone else's emotional stability. So if you need an adult time-out, like at that moment I was red, I was livid because I was worried like, you know, a centimetre more he could have hit him in the eye and so you know, something's triggered me, the child can't see what's triggered me but I know I'm now way up here and I need to come down before I can sort this out and so you can't, we can't, we're human. We can't be expected to repair in our state of, we're ruptured ourselves. Our emotional state's all over the place.

MELODY: I really really like this and you know, it sounds, I don't know whether it sounds weird but in my head right, I've always got this idea that you know, the perfect parent is the one that's always, you know, calm and even when the brother's trying to kill the other one, you're just like, you know, "Hey can you just separate," and it's good to see that you know even when you see red, it's fine and it happens and there is recovery. You can come back from that.

DOCTOR TASH: Yup. Some people struggle with it more. Others can be that calm duck on top of the water but for some of us, myself included, it's hard work and it's not a natural, it is always going to be a struggle no matter how much you know and that's okay. So it's you try and grow you try be better but it's okay if you struggle. The repair matters more.

MELODY: Well, so we're talking about the feelings that you get with the rupture right, so that's the you can get angry but inevitably, all of us who do get angry, we yell, we lose it and then at the end, I'm pretty sure we all have this deep sense of guilt, this I-really-shouldn't-have-done-that moment and how do you recover from that?

DOCTOR TASH: It's a great question and I do think it's important to address and there's something that comes to me when I hear you say that. So when you refer to deep sense of guilt, what I hear underneath that is potentially shame. I'm talking about that deep sense. I'll get into it a bit but it's important to understand there's a difference between guilt and shame. So guilt speaks to our behaviour, what we did, the action itself. Guilt is normal, natural, healthy. It's our moral compass saying, "Well, not my finest moment, probably shouldn't have done that, we should have handled it better, I'll aim to do better next time." It helps guide us back to apologising and reconnecting with our child and that's it. It's redirecting us, helping us reflect and grow but it does not define us. Guilt does not feel like chains on our neck. That heavy weighted prison-sentence-like feeling, that's shame. Shame speaks to who we are. Our sense of being, our self-worth and it leaves the message, I'm a bad parent, I'm a bad person, what's wrong with me, why can't I do anything right and other sentiments like that. That is not guilt, that's shame and shame actually has no place because when shame tears us down, it doesn't make things better for our children it makes us stuck. It doesn't help us repair, it doesn't strengthen connection, it actually can disconnect us from our child more because we're so busy tearing ourselves down that we're not able to have the emote, be emotionally present to be able to build any connection back up and so what do we do with that shame?

First of all please don't shame yourself for feeling shame. It's something many of us carry without, often without even realising and we can't change the past but we can be intentional about how we speak to ourselves going forward and mindful, like when you've spoken to yourself like that a lot going, in the past it takes time. It's like you know, learning to ride a bike. You can't suddenly ride a bike. It takes time. There's lots of falling, there's lots of tripping and that's okay but know this: You're not a bad parent. The very fact that you're listening to this proves that. You're a good parent who's doing the very best they can and sometimes it's really hard. Another thing, Melody, I know I've mentioned this to you before but I think it's worth saying again. Dr Edward Tronick, developmental psychologist, did observational research that showed that parents only need to get it right 30% of the time in order to develop a secure attachment with their child and I think for parents that experience deep shame, that's really important to know because what it's saying is that, I don't have to get it right all the time. Perfection is not the goal, repair is.

MELODY: Not even half the time, 30%.

DOCTOR TASH: Not even half the time, technically not even a third of the time. It's less than we think that we have to get it right to get that secure attachment and that's a huge weight off your shoulders if you're someone who experiences deep shame. If you can really realise that.

MELODY: I know I do cycle between it. Like most of the times I feel guilt but occasionally you know, I think maybe, I don't know, the guilt piles on to the point where you just go like, I can't get this right, I'm just a terrible parent and I yeah, just hearing yeah, it feels good just hearing you say that.

DOCTOR TASH: I hear you and I think if I look back at my own life, I was someone who used to experience deep shame and with time, you get better at it like riding a bike. When you re-change that conversational topic and how you talk to yourself, it gets better, might not ever completely go away but it's catching ourselves in the moment where we start to feel that shame start to shame us, let's go, "Nah I'm a good parent. I'm a good parent who's having a hard time. I'm doing the best I can and sure, I might not have done that the best but I'll do it better next time," or "I'll try and do it better next time."

MELODY: Reminds me of this saying that, this philosophy that I try to live by right, where it says that you know, the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago but the second best time to plant a tree is today and so it's like, yes, I should have done whatever it is 10 years ago but you know what, I'll try today and I'm gonna try hard and try to be better today.

DOCTOR TASH: Absolutely.

MELODY: Well, as we do in every podcast, we're just going to wrap up here now but before I do that I want to ask you, what is the takeaway here?

DOCTOR TASH: I think remembering the ruptures will happen, we are human and there will be moments of disconnection in every single parent-child relationship. As long as there's a relationship, you're going to have a rupture and our kids don't need perfect parents. What they need are parents that are willing to reflect, to take responsibility for their part in the disconnection and be intentional about coming back to reconnect regardless of who caused the rupture. A parent willing to say, "I messed up but I care enough to come back," because in the end it's not the rupture that matters, it's the reconnection that matters more.

MELODY: And I think I'll add to that is that it only needs to happen 30% of the time.

DOCTOR TASH: Yes.

MELODY: I really love that. Well, thank you so much, Tash.

DOCTOR TASH: Thanks for having me, Melody, it's always a pleasure.

MELODY: This has been episode three of Mum to Mum with Doctor Tash. Don't forget you can find Dr Tash's full article on rupture and repair in the show notes. You really should give it a read because it'll give you a much deeper understanding of the concept but if you still have questions on this topic or anything else, we'll love to hear from you. You can get in touch by commenting here or emailing us at Hello@MumsAtTheTable.com. We'll see you next time on Mum to Mum with Doctor Tash.